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Transcript:
This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
Luis Hernandez: Growing up in Rhode Island, writer Don Winslow was surrounded by stories about the mob – headed up in Providence for decades by the infamous Raymond Patriarca. Winslow’s fascination with those stories and characters would later lead to his Danny Ryan trilogy. “City on Fire,” the first novel in the series, tells the tale of a battle between Irish and Italian mob families. The 2022 book was a New York Times bestseller, and it’s the March pick for The Public’s Radio book club. Author Don Winslow joins me now. Don, thanks so much for joining us; it’s a pleasure.
Don Winslow: My pleasure, thanks for having me.
Hernandez: This book is the first of a trilogy, and obviously we focused on “City on Fire” for the month of March, but how would you set this up for people? How do you set up the whole trilogy for people? Describe that.
Winslow: Wow, big question. Basically, it’s the story of a guy named Danny Ryan, who is a Rhode Island guy, longshoreman and part time fisherman, who marries into an Irish criminal syndicate family and gets pulled into a crime war. The other half of that, though, is that the whole trilogy is taken from Greek and Roman classics. So it follows the “Aeneid,” the “Odyssey,” the “Iliad,” and certain Greek tragedies. What I tried to do with the trilogy was write a fully contemporary crime epic where you didn’t need to have any knowledge or interest in the classics at all. You could read it just straight out as a modern crime epic, which is the way most people, in fact, are reading it. But if you do have that knowledge or interest in the classics, you’re going to see the parallels there.
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Hernandez: What was the inspiration for this series? Where did it come from?
Winslow: In my late 30s, I realized how ignorant I really was. I mean, other people had pointed that out to me at a much younger age. [laughs] I have a very narrow education in African history, of all things. And so in my 30s I thought I really should go back and get a knowledge of the great books. So I got one of those lists – there are a lot of them – and decided to read it. It took me seven years to read through the whole list, but very early on in that, of course, I came on to the “Iliad.” It reminded me not only of the great themes of my beloved genre of crime fiction, but also of crime history. The sort of events in the “Iliad’ were echoed by more contemporary events that actually occurred.
Hernandez: I wanted to come back to Danny. I wondered, is he based on somebody you’ve known?
Winslow: Oh, 20 people. [laughs] No, Danny’s not inspired by any particular person. Danny is completely fictional. You know, growing up in Rhode Island, you’re on the periphery of this all the time. So you kind of know these guys. So I grew up in Rhode Island playing pond hockey and going to the beach and hitting the waves, and going to the bars and the restaurants. And so this person was pretty familiar to me.
Hernandez: You know, it’s a story that we see often in the mobster stories, the mafia stories: the person not born into the family, but gets into the family. Why is that so popular? That’s such a popular idea. We want to see the story from that perspective more than any other.
Winslow: Yeah, that’s a really interesting and really perceptive question, Luis. I chose the Aeneas character to model Danny on, or to follow in that track, because he was an outsider. If you look at the “Iliad” and the Trojan War, Aeneas sort of has one foot in, one foot out. He’s a reluctant hero. I think it’s attractive to a writer because it allows you to have a guy who’s in the center of the action physically, but mentally just has that little bit of a remove so that he can comment about it. Do you know what I mean? He has a slightly different, outsider’s perspective. If you look at, for instance, an iconic work like “The Godfather,” right, it’s seen principally through the point of view of Michael, who, although he’s born into the family and is very much of the family, is, again, that outsider’s kind of perspective.
Hernandez: One of the things I enjoyed most and I always wondered, and this seems like such a tricky thing to me anyway, is the voice of the characters. These characters, they are mischievous and dangerous. They’re not caricatures. Some writers try to write these kind of stories and can create caricatures, but these were very unique, and I wonder how you found that voice to make sure that it was genuine, but it wasn’t cartoonish. It was fun, and you felt like, “Oh, I know these guys.”
Winslow: Oh, well, first of all, thank you. Yeah, listen, this trilogy took me 30 years to write. I wrote the first sentence of “City on Fire” almost 30 years ago now. And that sentence, by the way, has never changed by a syllable, which is a bit surprising because I think I probably threw away 300-400 pages of this trilogy during the course of writing it.
Look, the way I view my job is to bring the reader into a world that he or she could not otherwise enter, or let them see it differently. There’s a lot of techniques for doing that. The one I choose, though, is, for the most part, trying to see that world through the character’s eyes. In order to do that, I have to see the world from the inside out. If that’s the case, I can’t be objective. I’m not trying to be objective. I’m not trying to make moral judgments about the characters, because I think you’re quite right. When you do that, what you end up with is sort of a cartoonish silhouette, right, this one-dimensional black figure on a field of your own white moral purity – which gets, I think, really dull. Everyone has a point of view. We might despise it, we might find it objectionable, we might sympathize with it, but everybody has a point of view. And that’s what I’m trying to do as a writer.
The second part of that answer is, I won’t start writing a book or a character until that character’s talking to me. I know that sounds a little insane. But I think about the characters a lot. I try to, sort of, spend imaginary time with them. And when the character starts talking, won’t shut up, insists on writing his or her own dialogue, that’s when I’ll start typing.
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Hernandez: I’m talking with New York Times bestselling writer Don Winslow, author of “City on Fire,” the March pick for The Public’s Radio Book Club. By the way, this is the first book in a trilogy. And to note, the last book of that trilogy is coming out this year.
You grew up in Matunuck. How do you describe life – and this is especially helpful to me as still the newbie here – how do you describe life in Rhode Island in your childhood, and how it’s changed over the decades?
Winslow: You know, it hasn’t changed all that much. You don’t get away with a lot in Matunuck. You’ll get called on it pretty quickly. They’ve also maintained the legitimacy of real Rhode Island clam chowder, which, I should inform you, is a very, very important aspect of life here. Again, it’s more crowded. There are probably more places to get a cup of coffee. The restaurants have gone a little more upscale. I suppose that those are the changes. But Matunuck’s still Matunuck. Moonstone Beach is still Moonstone Beach.
You know, the funny thing is I don’t think it’s changed. I think that I’ve changed. I left here when I was 17. I came back a lot, but didn’t really start living here again until about 10 years ago. [I] came back to take care of my mom. It’s funny, I’ve been out in California mostly, and I never drive the Pacific Coast Highway in California without being excited. I’ve done it a thousand times. Still, I get stoked every time I drive those stretches of road. What I found coming back to Rhode Island over the past few years is, I feel the same way now about Matunuck Beach Road and Succotash Road. I’m excited every time I go. So I think in some regards maybe my attitude has changed a bit.
Hernandez: One of the interesting things I’ve learned from people who are from Rhode Island is, and I’ve heard this, that it’s almost like the two degrees of separation. Everybody’s connected in some way because it’s such a small state, but also historically. I wondered, looking back on some of that history of Rhode Island, – and again, because of the conversation we’re having about your book – I wondered with those stories of the mob families and their role here in Rhode Island, what is that two degrees of separation for you and your family? You knew some of these guys, right?
Winslow: I was on the periphery. I wasn’t intimate with any of these guys. Rhode Island’s a fun place. This is a state that was founded in an act of rebellion, founded in an act of independence, and it’s retained that sense, that orneriness, that little chip on its shoulder of being such a small place, being located between Boston and New York. We have a bit of the red-headed stepchild kind of attitude, which I think makes the state unique.
In terms of my own relationship with the mob and the mafia, it’s probably like a lot of people. I’d pick up the Providence Journal some mornings and there’s a story, and you’d be in Providence and maybe you’d see those guys around or see who you think those guys are around, or you’re in certain restaurants or certain bars that have a legacy, if you will, but that’s about it.
Listen, my mom was a librarian. My dad was a career [non-commissioned officer] in the Navy and then later with the Environmental Protection Agency down in Saunderstown. So we weren’t really connected with much of that.
Hernandez: But everybody knows a Pat or a Polly or a Jimmy or any of these guys.
Winslow: Sure. Listen, I think I joke in the book that it should be stitched on the state flag. The motto should be, “I know a guy.”
Hernandez: I love that line!
Winslow: If you’ve been around Rhode Island long enough, you’ve heard it without irony, right? No matter what you’re talking about, you know? “The muffler on my car went out. Ah. I know a guy.” It’s something that makes Rhode Island really so great, and again, Gene and I, my wife and I talk about it all the time. In such a small area, even South County, there’s so many different little niches, places to go, these little harbors, these little marinas, a coffee shop for breakfast at the marina. Or do you want to go to Narragansett? Do you want to go down to Westerly? And all these just little spots that are unique and different from each other. And I think it’s really fun.
Hernandez: This is so fascinating to me – I was reading up on you. You were a private investigator at one point, even in your early days of writing. And it makes sense. I can see the storytelling, the details of scenes. How would you say that influenced your writing?
Winslow: You know, in a couple of ways. First of all, it got you into that world of trials and cops and judges and lawyers. I started off in New York at a very, very low level, what you would call a street rat, in Times Square, in Hell’s Kitchen, in those neighborhoods. And later in life, I came back to it because the writing wasn’t supporting me for a long, long time. I think I was seven published books into my career before I could make a living at it. I needed to do other things, and so I came out here. In fact, what brought me to California was investigative work. I came out to work on trials that mostly involved arson, some homicides, some frauds, and things. So it introduced me to that world of courts and all of that.
I think, though, more than that, a lot of the same techniques that I would use to investigate a case I would use later in life to research books. A number of my books are very close to the bone. They’re very, very close to the actual facts. I wrote three, kind of, big fat books about the Mexican drug trade, which are virtual documentaries. So that involved a lot of documentary research, a lot of interviewing and that kind of thing, which was surprisingly similar to the work I’d been doing as an investigator. So I think that was the biggest influence of that work.
Hernandez: Don, we got a question from one of our listeners, Kari Nel Lang. She says, why the White Castle references? Were there really White Castles in Rhode Island? And why not New York System instead?
Winslow: First of all, there really were White Castles in Rhode Island. I think that the reason for the reference goes back to my childhood. Maybe some of the older listeners out there will remember that the Rhode Island Reds hockey team used to play their games on North Main Street in the old arena there. My dad was a fanatic hockey fan. We used to go to those games in what was called the Snake Pit there on North Main Street. They didn’t have plexiglass. They had chicken wire. Fans used to reach through the chicken wire and grab opponent’s jerseys. I remember one night during a brawl, people ripped off the top benches and threw them at the players on the ice. Anyway, so there was a White Castle near the arena that we often used to stop and get burgers at before going to the hockey games. Why not New York System? I don’t know, because I guess I prefer White Castle.
Hernandez: This book is in the works now for adaptation to a movie. How does that feel?
Winslow: Good. [laughs] Sorry, I’m not trying to be coy with you. Look, it’s Austin Butler. I don’t know if you saw “Elvis” or “Masters of the Air” or “Dune: Part Two.” Terrific actor. Terrific guy, by the way, really, really good guy. He’s playing Danny Ryan. So it feels good. I’ve had good conversations with him and with the producers. I think they’re intending to shoot in Rhode Island. And they were supposed to have come out, actually, to do some location scouting and then the strikes occurred and now we’re a little backed up, but it’s steaming forward. And so I hope to be leading those people along Jerusalem sometime soon.
Hernandez: What’s it like, though, working with producers, directors, when they’re adapting your book? Obviously they have to rewrite the screenplay because the film is so different from a book. What part of the process do you get to play?
Winslow: I’m very aware that books and movies are two different breeds of cat with different needs. As a writer, as a novelist, rather, you can’t be too rigid because you really are talking about two different things. What I’ve learned over the years – I’ve had a couple of things hit the screen – is that you have to look at them maybe the way you’d look at your different children. They’re all different but equal, right? My part of the process is basically to read the scripts, give them notes on the scripts. If they’re making significant changes, I’d like to know why, I’d like to hear their reasons. Sometimes their reasons are really good. Other times, maybe not so much. I help with locations. A lot of times, the directors, sometimes the actors or the art director and those people, want to see the actual locations, which I’m very appreciative of. And so I’ll drive them around or walk them around or whatever. But I don’t have veto power. Do you know what I mean? I have influence. And usually they’re really good, all the stereotypes notwithstanding about hearing those.
Hernandez: This blew me away when I saw this. You announced that this series is the last thing that you’re going to be writing. You’re moving into politics. All right, explain.
Winslow: It’s not that I’m moving into politics. I’ve been there for a while. And let me be very clear, when we say moving into politics, I’m not running for office. Can we just verbally underline that and put that in bold type on your sound system. Listen, for five or six years, more than that, I’ve been pretty active on social media putting out, I guess they used to be tweets, I don’t know what they are now, and videos that have basically been fighting against what I consider to be a neo-fascist movement in this country led by, unfortunately, the former president. I think, having finished this trilogy, which, as I said, has been the work of a lifetime, that feels like an ending to me. I feel that my energies, such as they are now, are better spent in that fight than they are in writing novels. I think we’re at a very critical point in American democracy. It’s kind of all hands on deck, and I feel I should be one of those hands.
Hernandez: Don Winslow, author of the New York Times bestselling novel “City on Fire,” the March pick for The Public’s Radio book club. It’s the first book, by the way, in the Danny Ryan trilogy. Don, it’s such a pleasure. Thank you so, so much. I really appreciate it.
Winslow: My pleasure. It’s just been a lot of fun. Thank you so much.
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